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Pp-oo In Illinois & Indiana


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#1 DennyG

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 12:09 PM

This will be my third year at the Springfield Route 66 Festival. The first time (2003) I intended to hurry home on expressways but quickly gave that up as a bad choice and ended up traveling, unknowingly and purely by accident, a bit of the last PP-OO alignment. The second time (2006) I decided on a US-36 based route and stayed with that until around Rockville, IN. This year, with new found awareness of the PP-OO, I'm looking into following that a bit more closely. I'm interested in the final alignment partly because it goes right by my parents house at the west edge of Ohio. I am a little surprised and very much pleased to discover that I have enough vacation left that I feel I can splurge and use two days for the festival outing: Friday for the Chain of Rocks crossing and Monday to allow a reasonably relaxed two day drive to my parents' doorstep.

So here are some questions for specific forum members:

roadmaven & mobilene
Would you care to keep me company part of the way? (BTW, Mo, I've been wondering when you were going to jump up and say "I'll be there" regarding the Springfield festival.) I'll leave Springfield fairly early Sunday and a first guess at an overnight puts it somewhere around Crawfordsville give or take several miles and a few small towns. You could bid me farewell and scurry down I-74 whenever you felt it appropriate.

KtSotR
Can you contribute scans for that section of the PP-OO similar to what you did for the eastern Ohio stretch? Maybe I can spot some of the advertised businesses this time. And, since I've seen some wild talk elsewhere on this forum, I'll even ask you the same thing I asked Ro & Mo. Fly into St Louis, ride across the CoR with me, and fly home from Springfield, Indianapolis, or Dayton?

Like most of my plans, these could change or evaporate at any moment, but I don't think they're at severe risk. If anyone else might want to join in on a bit of the PP-OO segment (RoadDog? Bliss? Kip?) just raise your hand.

#2 mobilene

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 01:56 PM

Yeah, well, the weekend of the 29th is when I was going to be moving into my new house. That has been placed on hold, probably by two weeks, but then the problem becomes that any dollar I didn't put into buying the house needs to go into buying things for the house. I'll just say that this is my first post-divorce permanent residence and leave deriving the rest of the equation as an exercise for the reader. With any luck there'll be another 66fest next year and I'll be able to go.

So the Springfield to Crawfordsville co-cruise is probably out. But I might welcome a day off on Monday, if I can get it, and we could cruise across the PP-OO from C-ville east. Lemme know if that'd work for you, or whether you'll just be focusing on getting the heck home that day.

Looks like IL 6/IN 32/OH 571 could be the PP-OO -- it goes from Danville, IL, through Crawfordsville, Lebanon, Anderson, and Muncie, all towns on the PP-OO in 1927.

jim

#3 Keep the Show on the Road!

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 04:33 PM

Denny,

I can certainly scan whatever you need. And be very happy to do it. That is what my stuff is good for, and I enjoy the delving.

This is for the weekend that includes the 29th, right? I ask because we have guests arriving in 30 minutes who won’t leave until Tuesday. Is mid next week OK for the scans? If you need them sooner I can get them.

I really appreciate the offer to connect with you, and I am getting closer to a Midwest adventure. At the moment Sheila and I are tossing around our thoughts for travels this Fall, so I better pass for now.

Gotta run so I can guide the RV’s into our driveway.

Keep the Show on the Road

#4 DennyG

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 05:35 PM

QUOTE (mobilene @ Sep 7 2007, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But I might welcome a day off on Monday, if I can get it, and we could cruise across the PP-OO from C-ville east. Lemme know if that'd work for you, or whether you'll just be focusing on getting the heck home that day.
Hard to say. Of the two homeward bound days, Monday's the one most likely to get crunched because I spent too much time somewhere Sunday. It seems that, no matter whether the trip is two days or two weeks, I start off feeling like I have loads of time and end up rushing to get home, catch a plane, or something similar. I'm afraid to commit to something but we can see how things go.
QUOTE (Keep the Show on the Road! @ Sep 7 2007, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is for the weekend that includes the 29th, right?
Right. Next week or even later is fine. I have the basic route down so it's a matter of sorting some detail or looking for a building
QUOTE (Keep the Show on the Road! @ Sep 7 2007, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At the moment Sheila and I are tossing around our thoughts for travels this Fall, so I better pass for now.
Alrighty. If you change your mind, write your name on a sheet and hang it from the CoR where I can see it.
QUOTE (Keep the Show on the Road! @ Sep 7 2007, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gotta run so I can guide the RV’s into our driveway.
You wouldn't have to worry about that if you didn't stay home so much. biggrin.gif

#5 brownwho63

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 08:02 AM

QUOTE (DennyG @ Sep 7 2007, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So here are some questions for specific forum members:

Like most of my plans, these could change or evaporate at any moment, but I don't think they're at severe risk. If anyone else might want to join in on a bit of the PP-OO segment (RoadDog? Bliss? Kip?) just raise your hand.



Sounds like fun, Denny, but I'll feel fortunate if 'Lil Red just takes us to Springfield and back to STL without any big problems. She's a high-mile day tripper and we try not to push our luck too far.

See ya at the COR, though, for the cruise to Springfield and the Friday night street 66 street cruise....Bliss

#6 roadmaven

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 12:38 PM

QUOTE (DennyG @ Sep 7 2007, 01:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So here are some questions for specific forum members:

roadmaven & mobilene
Would you care to keep me company part of the way? (BTW, Mo, I've been wondering when you were going to jump up and say "I'll be there" regarding the Springfield festival.) I'll leave Springfield fairly early Sunday and a first guess at an overnight puts it somewhere around Crawfordsville give or take several miles and a few small towns. You could bid me farewell and scurry down I-74 whenever you felt it appropriate.


There's a very good possiblity I can shadow you on the way home Sunday. A question I have for you or mobilene is if either of you have have it mapped yet? I've been looking at it from my 1925 auto trails map, but haven't actually transferred any of the info to a usable map with current county/state/US routes on it.

I'll probably wait until the last possible minute before I register for the Springfield show. Hate to eat a $40 entry fee if I can help it! I'm still wavering on when & how to get to Springfield. If I got out of the house at 6am Friday and took the I to the CoR, I could probably get there right when the first car is rolling across.

#7 mobilene

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE (roadmaven @ Sep 10 2007, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There's a very good possiblity I can shadow you on the way home Sunday. A question I have for you or mobilene is if either of you have have it mapped yet? I've been looking at it from my 1925 auto trails map, but haven't actually transferred any of the info to a usable map with current county/state/US routes on it.


If you mean the final alignment of the PP-OO in IL and IN, I think it's a safe bet that it's simply IL 6/IN 32. By the time of the PP-OO's last routing, I'm betting these two roads were pretty well in place. I traced the IN portion via Google Maps and saw very little in the way of former alignments.

Is that what you're asking for?

#8 roadmaven

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 03:18 PM

QUOTE (mobilene @ Sep 10 2007, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you mean the final alignment of the PP-OO in IL and IN, I think it's a safe bet that it's simply IL 6/IN 32. By the time of the PP-OO's last routing, I'm betting these two roads were pretty well in place. I traced the IN portion via Google Maps and saw very little in the way of former alignments.

Is that what you're asking for?


That's it! So there's no evidence of it using any obscure county roads?

#9 mobilene

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 03:50 PM

Not that I can tell. In Indiana, at least, 32 goes directly through all the towns on the PP-OO's final route. There is little evidence of roads that diverge and converge (as on the earlier US 36-based PP-OO alignment), and I don't detect any other road that hits all those towns.

I wonder if my 1924 ABB will shed some light (he says, puffing out his chest over his new acquisition). I'll try to find time to look this evening.

jim

#10 roadmaven

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (mobilene @ Sep 10 2007, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not that I can tell. In Indiana, at least, 32 goes directly through all the towns on the PP-OO's final route. There is little evidence of roads that diverge and converge (as on the earlier US 36-based PP-OO alignment), and I don't detect any other road that hits all those towns.

I wonder if my 1924 ABB will shed some light (he says, puffing out his chest over his new acquisition). I'll try to find time to look this evening.

jim


We just had this conversation over the weekend about getting an ABB. I guess my hunt is now on. It's time to be a have and not a have not. laugh.gif

#11 DennyG

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 04:03 PM

I do have a general (missing plenty of in town details) plot at home. As I recall, it is IN-32 east of Crawsfordsville and US-136 west of there. West of Danville, I believe it tracks US-150 for awhile but does get on some smaller (obscure?) roads between Urbana and Decatur. West of Decatur I'm thinking that the road deLorme now calls "Old Route 36" is pretty much it.

mobilene, I'm not at all familiar with IL-6 but Wikipedia claims it's a short road between Mossville & Peoria. Is it more than that or did you mean something else?

#12 mobilene

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 08:13 PM

Now that I'm looking at it again, I wonder what sources I was looking at last time that made me so sure of myself. Oh, and that IL 6 is a case of me getting hung up on Windows Live Local's labels. That's some county road.

I believe you are right, Denny, about the route, down to following some smaller roads between Decatur and Champaign. These scans from my 1924 ABB lay out the route and I can track it on Google Maps pretty well. There's some weirdness just west of Decatur and around White Heath where I-72 may have obliterated some of the old route. It looks like a few blocks of a street aren't there anymore in Urbana. I can't at all figure out how the ABB is telling me to get from Oakwood to Danville. It also puts you on the Dixie Bee Highway from Covington to Veedersburg.

The ABB doesn't call this out as the PP-OO, but it looks good to me.





Good grief, this stuff is fascinating. I've spent 90 minutes figuring this out, and I didn't even realize the time passed.

Edited by mobilene, 10 September 2007 - 08:34 PM.


#13 DennyG

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 09:17 PM

mobilene, I was debating whether to post an SA2008 routing file here when you posted the ABB pages. That pushed me to the "do it" side of the debate only to discover that .DMT (DeLorme Magic Transfer?) files aren't permitted. I was questioning the wisdom of posting something that is obviously preliminary as well as not being usable by everyone so maybe that's the best. As soon as I finish this (which might not be until the Bengals-Raven game ends) I'll send a copy to roadmaven and I'd be happy to send it to anyone else who is interested. Then I'll try tracing the ABB directions.

I suspect that some thing's missing between Illiopolis and Niantic which may be the mentioned "weirdness just west of Decatur" and had sort of conceded that White Heath section to I-72.

#14 roadmaven

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE (mobilene @ Sep 10 2007, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not that I can tell. In Indiana, at least, 32 goes directly through all the towns on the PP-OO's final route. There is little evidence of roads that diverge and converge (as on the earlier US 36-based PP-OO alignment), and I don't detect any other road that hits all those towns.

I wonder if my 1924 ABB will shed some light (he says, puffing out his chest over his new acquisition). I'll try to find time to look this evening.

jim


Jim,
Out of curiosity, what do you show the route taking west out of Crawfordsville? My '25 map shows it heading out on a route that wouldn't be IN-32 today. It does some stairstepping southwest and goes through the town of Alamo, which is accessible today via county roads.

#15 mobilene

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 09:49 PM

I'm about to hang it up for the night, but real fast -- the westbound route is the exact opposite of the eastbound. Cville to Waynetown to Hillsboro to Veedersburg (via Dixie Bee Road) to Covington.

Bear in mind that my 1924 ABB isn't calling this route the PP-OO -- in 1924, the PP-OO still took the route through Rockville, Montezuma, and Chrisman. I'm just making an educated conclusion.

#16 roadmaven

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 09:56 PM

QUOTE (mobilene @ Sep 10 2007, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good grief, this stuff is fascinating. I've spent 90 minutes figuring this out, and I didn't even realize the time passed.


No kidding! I realize now why our routes aren't jiving....there was a major routing change somewhere along the way. Mine heads SW out of Crawfordsville and ends up in Rockville, where it picks up current US 36 west to Chrisman, IL. More digging......

#17 DennyG

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 10:06 PM

QUOTE (roadmaven @ Sep 10 2007, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
....there was a major routing change somewhere along the way.
laugh.gif The PP-OO was nothing if not dynamic. I'm looking at what I think was the final route from about 1925 because it's the only coast-to-coast highway that ever went through Darke County Ohio.

#18 roadmaven

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 10:48 PM

OK boys, learn me this: When was the PPOO conceived? I just got an e-mail from master road sleuth Thomas Repp, and according to his 1920 map, the PPOO doesn't exist. Nothing coming out of C-ville in any direction called the PPOO. With that in mind, I give you these. These are the two sections of Indiana from my 1925 Rand McNally Auto Trails Map. Route #16 in the black box is the PPOO. I've got the route, according to this map, about 80% routed from Crawfordsville to Rockville, but I'll finish in the coming days. Dare I post its routing and cloud this thing even more? cool.gif I'm pretty sure a road trip shall be had this weekend if anyone's up for some ghost road hunting.

Attached File  54.jpg   1000.15KB   60 downloads Attached File  55.jpg   1019.37KB   57 downloads

#19 DennyG

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Posted 10 September 2007 - 11:16 PM

QUOTE (roadmaven @ Sep 10 2007, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OK boys, learn me this: When was the PPOO conceived?
According to Meeks, the "birth" was March 17, 1914. Presumably, conception was some time earlier. In 1920, it was heading due west out of Indianapolis to Rockville. Apparently it was around 1925 that it moved to Crawfordsville, etc., for the short remainder of its life. I think that, for the PP-OO, you not only need the year of a map but the month and day, too. smile.gif

#20 mobilene

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 05:37 AM

It looks to me like the PP-OO was in the process of being rerouted to its final routing in 1924-1925 then. My 1924 ABB couldn't be clearer that the PP-OO went through Indy, Danville, Bainbridge, and Rockville, more or less along what is now US 36. But given that it was probably published in like late 1923, who knows. People trying to follow the PP-OO using maps and guides had to be feeling very confused in those days. Which direction does the road take today?

Interesting that, per your map, the PP-OO goes through Marshall, IN. I've been through there out of curiosity. There's a big ... not arch, what the heck are they called anyway? Pillars with a crossbar over the road announcing the town. But there's so little town there you wonder why they bothered announcing it. Maybe they were hopeful it would grow to be more.

jim




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